Weekly Thoughts

9/9/06 – Why Hell is There

Hi all,

Today I'll continue thinking about hell and eternity, but from a different perspective. I think it will shed light on questions that everyone has but you never hear addressed in church. I'm either bold enough to tackle issues people are curious about or stupid enough to expose myself to ridicule.

I want to put a disclaimer in here as well...please understand these are thoughts that are meant to get you thinking...they are things I'm thinking about and have studied out...in part because our oldest son now nearly 27 is 4 years old mentally, and partly because I've been to other countries and led people who've never heard of Jesus to the Lord and have been curious about some things they said.

Pease don't let anything I say become a means by which you request to be taken off the email list because you are so angry if this week's thoughts offend you, maybe the other 45 or so I write each year won't...so hang in there!

People have questions about hell from the perspective of why doesn't God just snuff out the devil and/or bad people instead of making them suffer. Also, what about babies...why do they go to heaven...what is the reason? And what about those ignorant of Jesus...having never heard of him...do they go to hell automatically? Where does ignorance enter into the equation? What about the natives in some far off land who haven't heard of Jesus?

Let me say as I said at the start of this 3 weeks ago in my opening paragraph, I am not in the camp of Carlton Pearson who says in essence that hell is at most a temporary slap on the wrist and that even Hitler is in heaven...not at all, but I do believe the Bible teaches some things that aren't often talked about in Christian circles. What follows may require you to think outside the box of traditional evangelical Churchianity.

The first question is about the eternal nature of spirit beings - angels (good and fallen) and people.

Spirit beings are eternal by virtue of the One who created them. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and is Life itself, therefore when he creates spirit beings they too have eternal life and cannot be merely 'snuffed out'. Note these scriptures that speak of God being the One who creates the human spirit:

"Shall we not be subject to the Father of spirits and live? (Hebrews 12:9)

"...saith the Lord...(who) forms the spirit of man within him. (Zechariah 12:1)

"Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens...he that spread forth the earth...he that gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to them that walk therein." (Isaiah 42:5)

"You send forth your spirit, they are created." (Psalm 104:30)

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." (Job 33:4)

"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (I John 1:5)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, tested or tried that God is doing it to him: For God cannot be tempted by evil and neither does he tempt any man (with evil)...Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness (to his nature) neither shadow of turning (in his character). (James 1:13, 17)

In these passages we understand that God is light and love and as such can only create beings of that nature. Thus angels were created 'alive to God' until 1/3 of them decided to reject God and all he was and is, and a place was prepared for them. Their rejection of Life darkened their spirits and thus changed their nature. They no longer wanted anything to do with God, life, love and were granted a kingdom without anything of God in it. (see the previous 2 week's of my "Weekly Thoughts").

Similarly people are created 'alive to God', created from God himself and thus eternal, and also having (therefore) eternal spirits.

There is an old Roman Catholic doctrine that goes back to the middle ages and was used to get people to buy dead relative's salvations, and that doctrine is 'original sin', the concept that everyone is born with a spirit that is 'dead' or has the nature of Satan. Unfortunately this error isn't talked about much in most circles and many Christians have believed it though the Word is very clear to the contrary as seen in the above passages.

We are all created just as our Father and Mother were- Adam and Eve. They were innocent and alive to God when they were created, before they had the chance to choose between the knowledge of Life or the knowledge of good and evil. Man doesn't produce the human spirit, only God can give life and his life is eternal. What is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven, and so when a sperm and egg come together God creates the human spirit at that point of conception. God gives the spirit of man; man doesn't create it.

Before Adam and Eve chose the knowledge of good and evil they could still operate in God's realm. Indeed the 2nd chapter of Genesis records that the Lord planted a garden and put man in it, spoke to him about the garden and it's care, watched him name all the animals, and finally created and brought to him his wife, Eve...all this happened between the time they were created yet before they made the choice to eat of the knowledge of good and evil.

They were able to operate in the Spirit realm with the Lord before they chose which tree to eat from because when God created them he only produces Life...

This is why little children are innocent and like Adam and Eve before the knowledge of good and evil came to them, don't realize they are naked. Which group of people have such innocence and don't know they are naked? Toddlers (and the profoundly retarded). Imagine Adam and Eve with the innocence of toddlers yet an intellect beyond Einstein and you'll get an idea of what they were like.

Why is this important? Because we have to understand that people are eternal because God created us...God who is Life and Love and Light and in whom there is no darkness, creates every person, and coming from him, every person is born with a spirit that is alive to God, having not yet chosen which tree to eat from. Every person is presented in one form or another the exact same choice Adam and Eve had...the knowledge of good and evil or the Tree of Life (Jesus).

This is why little children often tell of seeing angels or Jesus...then one day they come to know the world (good/evil) and that innocence fades and the spiritual world closes...unless they go directly to choosing the Tree of Life, Jesus himself.

Thus the answer to why babies go to heaven is not found only in that they have committed no sin, it is also that their spirit man has God's life just as Adam and Eve had before they chose the wrong tree.

Remember that in Genesis 2:17 the Lord told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in dying you will die". In other words, in dying spiritually you will die physically. Paul would later write the same thing in Romans 5:12; that death came into the world through that act of sin.

Now what does 'dying spiritually' mean? Some Christians have the idea that a person's spirit is dead like a bug on the sidewalk before they accept Jesus as Lord and are born again. Of course that is not correct as shown above because our spirits are eternal in nature and are created by God.

Being spiritually dead is a misleading term that actually means the nature in the spirit man is that of death, of Satan, void of God's eternal life, yet still an eternal being.

Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil". He wasn't saying their spirit man had no life, he was saying their nature was that of death, the devil, separated from God.

So we can see that people are created with spirits alive to God, able to operate in his realm, with the innocence and spiritual abilities like Adam and Eve before they sinned. If babies go to heaven when they die because they have not sinned and their spirit man is alive to God, then at what stage does our spirit man's nature change to the knowledge of good and evil and our time of innocence and ignorance end? What is that "age of accountability" we've heard of but rarely have defined for us?

This may come as a surprise, but the first level of knowing God is presented in the Bible as seeing him in nature.

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith...that which may be known of God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God Himself has shown it to them. For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity have been made intelligible and clearly discernable." (Romans 1:17-19) (Amplified)

The first area of the knowledge of God is through nature. There is a reason the Lord put Adam in the Garden of Eden first and explained how it was created and how it was to be kept and cultivated and then brought in the instructions about the trees. The first revelation to Adam was God as Creator. Next came the knowledge of good and evil, but first was the knowledge of God as Creator.

How do you think the Magi found the baby Jesus in Bethlehem? They saw his star in the sky. They knew the Lord first as Creator and that led them to Jesus.

Paul was preaching in Lystra in Acts 14:15-17 and referred to this process when he said:

"God who made heaven and earth and the sea and all things that are therein. Who in times past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons filling our hearts with food and gladness."

The context is that these people were ready to worship Paul for healing a crippled man, but before he could preach Jesus to them he went to the basic knowledge of God as Creator. That is why he would later write the passage in Romans 1 that I quoted above...the righteousness of God is revealed faith to faith...through creation his attributes can by known.

Paul would follow the same pattern in Acts 17:29-30 when he said: "For we are the offspring of God, and we should not think that the Godhead is like gold, or silver, or stone, worked by art and man's devices. And the times of this ignorance God winked at (overlooked); but now commands all men everywhere to repent."

Paul followed the same pattern set up in the Garden of Eden...Adam's first revelation was God as Creator, and that paved the way either for the tree of life or the knowledge of good and evil. Paul presented God first as creator when he dealt with the pagans of Lystra and Athens. To the Jews in the synagogue they already knew of God, but to the non-Jews who didn't know the Jewish Law and history, he presented God first as Creator.

Jesus alluded to and followed this pattern when he ministered to the common people and used so many parables involving nature and commented that they could perceive the natural seasons but couldn't tell the spiritual season they were in. Certainly his mastery over the wind and waves, walking on water, and the multiplication of food were signs that he was Creator first and foremost. Even during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth Zechariah 14:17-18 tells us that if some nations refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship Jesus "then upon them will be no rain", indicating first and foremost that Jesus is Creator.

Why is this important? Because of the question of ignorance. What if someone out there has never heard of Jesus as presented in the Jewish context. Is there a way for people to know God even if they have never heard the gospel as we might know it? What if all they can discern of God is from what they see in nature? What if they are still in ignorance, having only God's witness of seasons, harvest, and good times from those harvests?

Notice that Romans 1:17-19 says that the righteousness of God is revealed through nature so that a person can come to know him just by that.

This helps us understand many of the native peoples around the globe. Did you notice that Paul said in Acts 14 and Acts 17 that God 'winked at' or 'overlooked' times of ignorance where people worshipped idols, not knowing who it was that provided harvests and seasons? He said the seasons and harvest and good times were God's witness to mankind.

Is it possible that God would not hold people accountable for their ignorance? At what stage does a person's spirit "darken" or change natures from being alive to God fresh from creation to that of the nature of death and the devil?

Going back to Romans 1:17-20, and now to verses 21-22:

(the context again is seeing the Godhead in creation) "Because when they knew and recognized Him as the God (creator), they did not honor and glorify Him as God, or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking - with vain imaginations, foolish reasoning and stupid speculations, and their senseless minds darkened. (King James Version - "and their foolish heart was darkened."

Notice...when they knew God, or the KJV say they knew about God from creation, but chose not to acknowledge him as Creator, their hearts and minds became darkened.

This is the first line of salvation, to know him as creator. This is one reason the idea of evolution is such poison...it removes (from children especially) that first building block of salvation, it removes one way the righteousness of God is revealed, that of Him as Creator.If there is no creator and we all arose from muck, then there is no real purpose in life, there is no absolute value system...and it spirals downhill from there.

Secondly, notice Paul said when they rejected God as creator 'their hearts were darkened.'

Why were they darkened? Because they were born alive to God, as Adam and Eve were and all of us are...able to walk in the things of God but not yet having chosen which tree to eat from...and when they rejected the first link, God as Creator, their hearts were darkened...they 'died' spiritually, changed their nature from alive to God to that of separation from God.

It is then the text says those people begin worshipping and serving the creation rather than the creator; giving themselves over to sexual perversion ,and verses 29-31 reads like the conduct list of behavior at a public school in America.

But what of ignorance? What if someone sees that there is a God who created nature and worships him, rejecting the sin of those who choose not to follow the Creator?

Jesus said some interesting things about the role of ignorance. In John 9:41 speaking to the Pharisees: "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but because you now claim to have sight, your sin remains. If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but because you insist, We do see (clearly), you are unable to escape your guilt." (Amplified)

Notice...if you were blind you would have no sin...you would not be guilty of sin.

So accountability for sin rests on ignorance to some degree.

Jesus also said this in John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."

Again, ignorance is the issue...if they were blind about the things of God or if Jesus had not come...in both cases...they would not be guilty of sin.

Paul said it this way in Romans 4:15: "Where there is no law there is no sin." and Romans 5:13: "...but sin is not charged to men's account where there is no law (to transgress)." In that passage in Romans 5:13 the context was that sin was in the world...people were sinning all over the earth, but sin is not charged to men's account where there is no law. The law of Moses brought the knowledge of what sin was, what good and evil were, and how to live. God could not hold people accountable to a standard they were ignorant of.

He was saying the same thing as Jesus...if there is no law...no knowledge of God and what God expects, there is no sin, no account kept. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair and just to hold someone accountable for something they're ignorant of.

The Jewish law brought the knowledge of good and evil...when God gave the 10 Commandments telling the people it was wrong to lie, steal, covet, murder, commit adultery, worship idols and such, it brought the knowledge of good and evil...now there was a distinction between actions.

But when a people are ignorant of the law or there is no law in their culture, as seen above, God doesn't hold them accountable.

That said, we've already seen the most basic form of all this is seeing God and knowing God as creator, and this knowledge lays a groundwork for knowing him in fullness.

That is why Paul could tell the people in Acts 17 that times of ignorance God overlooked (winked at). And earlier when he told them that God left himself a witness by giving good seasons and harvest times...God had not put into the earth the knowledge of God for all people. He shared his ways with Israel, but now through the gospel of Jesus Paul was saying the times of that ignorance are over, and God is speaking to us through his son now.

Paul settled the issue of 'what about the natives who have never heard of Jesus' once and for all in Romans 2:12-15 (Living Bible)

"He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God's written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God's laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them , or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have His written laws but don't obey them. The day will surely come when at God's command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives..."

The Amplified version says "they show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their conscience also bears witness..."

In other words, there are people who see God as the creator but haven't heard (yet) of Jesus...yet God's requirements are written in their hearts and their conscience is their guide, and because of that ignorance that is the standard by which they will be judged by the Lord.

Paul himself would tell of the time his own heart was darkened by the knowledge of good and evil. In Romans 7:8-12 he said:

"Without the law (the knowledge of good and evil) sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Sin came in by the commandment (knowledge of good and evil) and deceived me, and by it killed me."

The Amplified says it this way: "Once I was alive but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again, and I died..."

Now Paul didn't die physically, he was saying that spiritually he was alive before, but when he became aware of good and evil that came through the 10 Commandments, he died spiritually...his heart was darkened. At the end of this chapter, in verses 24-25 he says: "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me...I thank God through Jesus Christ..."

This balance of knowledge, ignorance, and knowing God from creation helps explain the story of the Choco Indians of the Darien jungle of Panama. When some friends of ours moved there about 25 years ago to minister to and among the Choco, they had immediate success. They learned that in the folklore of the Choco's they understood that when they first became a people a being in white appeared to their forefathers and told them to worship the God who created the forest and gave them food to eat, and to love one another. Though later some would turn from these instructions, for centuries they followed those instructions until the day our friends came to them and told them the Creator's name is Jesus.

We can also look to the origins and pureness of the original faith of many of the Native Americans, the first peoples of North America, many of whom relate similar stories.

A very famous and well known story is told of a man in the nation of India who grew up in a village in the last part of the 19th century, during the time India was a colony of England. This boy saw the jungle and creation and decided there had to be one God who created it all, and that is who he wanted to know. He would later relate that a being in white appeared to him and told him that one day a man dressed in white carrying a black book and riding an elephant would come to his village. In that book are the words of the Creator of the jungle and they have the power of life.

The boy told the whole village of his dream/vision and there was eager anticipation, but years passed. One day an English missionary to the south was told by the Lord to go to such and such a village, but the man hesitated because he'd heard that the people in that northern province were against the gospel, but still the Lord insisted. Finally he went.

The boy, now a young man, was in the village that day when suddenly an Englishman all dressed in the white clothing of that time, Pith helmet and all, riding an elephant and holding a black book in his hand strode into the village. He presented Jesus to them and because of this young man's experience about 10 years earlier, the whole village learned the Creator they'd been seeking was named Jesus.

In Acts 15: 8 Peter would tell of his astonishing experience in Cornelius' household (recorded in Acts 10) where everyone there suddenly began speaking in tongues in the middle of his message. "And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness and gave them the Holy Spirit even as he did to us."

God who knows the hearts gave them the Holy Spirit. God honors the hearts of people by giving them the Holy Spirit, whether it's according to what we think is right according to what we've heard from the pulpit or not.

For me, I've settled it that babies go to heaven, as David said of his dead son, "I shall go to him but he shall not return to me." They do this because their nature is that of being alive to God, having been created by God who is only light and life and love, and because they have committed no sin.

I've also settled it that it is possible for people to know God from creation if they've never heard of Jesus...but as Romans 1:17 says, God's righteousness is revealed and can be known by creation.

I've also settled that people can live and die, even in Paul's time, even in our time, and still be ignorant that the creator's name is Jesus...and God will over look their ignorance until they come to know the Lord...and I know based on Romans 2:14-16 that God will punish sin wherever it's found, but will judge people based on knowledge, knowing that as Paul said, some don't have God's law yet still have God's law in their hearts with their conscience being the means by which they are held accountable to it. And that in the last day the secrets of men's hearts will be revealed, and that will be the basis upon which they are judged.

Evangelism then takes on a new dimension. To the ignorant people groups who've never heard of Jesus or the Jewish God as revealed in the Bible, the first approach would be that which Jesus and Paul used...to show them who the Creator is, and what he requires. There will be those who've been serving Jesus as Creator but haven't known his name...Jesus is the only way to heaven, but Paul tells us (as seen above) that some may go to heaven without knowing him other than Creator.

To those familiar with the gospel it may be an appeal to the goodness of God. That he has made provision for all who seek goodness and rightness, and that God isn't really very religious after all...he wants a relationship and fellowship with man, for he created this wonderful universe for man and God to walk in together.

For others it may a recalling to the day they remember their heart darkened. That age of accountability that varies by culture, intelligence and training. For Paul, he would have learned of good and evil through the Laws of Moses when he was about 4 or 5 years old. For other children more sheltered it could be later. For the profoundly retarded that age may not come at all.

The passages shared in this week's thoughts offer only a glimpse into the wonderful provision God has made. He is supremely fair.

I am not saying that every good person automatically goes to heaven. I don't believe that at all. The very thin sliver of thought presented here today is on the subject of babies and people who have never heard of Jesus nor had any opportunity to hear of him and answer the question of has God made some provision for them? I believe he has. I believe the passages I've shared are self evident and easily understood...

As Paul said in Acts 17:30...the times of ignorance God winked at, overlooked, but now commands everyone everywhere repent. It is our job to tell people who the Creator is, and in essence, that is what Paul was trying to do in Acts 14 and 17...his name is Jesus!

Anyway...these are my thoughts for this week,

 

Blessings,
John Fenn
cwowi.org